Product: Exploring Purpose Driven Robowealth and Outcome Driven Product Culture | Julie Martin, Head of Product at Stashaway

Monica Millares: [: 00:00:00

Julie Martin (Stashaway): Hi, Monica. Thanks for having me. Excited to have a discussion also.

Monica Millares: Yes, the pleasure is mine. Okay. So this is my go to question for everyone at the beginning. What has been the role of purpose in your life and in business?

Julie Martin (Stashaway): It's it's very interesting that you ask about purpose because so last year I was at the end of my twenties and it was a reflection year for me asking myself.

enjoy what I'm doing and and [: 00:01:00

So if you ask me the question my, what I like to do and what I'm driven to do is to make an impact in, in some sorts. So my, in terms of career, for instance, I always wanted at some point to do my own company, maybe one day, or like help others, you know, launching their, their companies in the personal life.

I, I don't know, but I also, I also think, you know, it's, I, you know, I want to make things that have an impact and that I enjoy doing. I enjoy the process of, of, of doing things. So yes, how I go around the question. What's your, my purpose? Because I'm still looking for it on some aspect. Like I spend time thinking about, you know, what I want to do.

How do I make an impact? But I enjoy the process. Awesome.

r purpose doesn't have to be [: 00:02:00

That's it. Broad. How did you bring that to life at work? Like, does it help you, motivate you?

Julie Martin (Stashaway): Yeah, so at work so I started my career. I wanted to do my own company, VC, helping other company growth. And I went to other way that I think would be good for me to acquire the skill set so that later I could, you know, also help others.

Right. And then I discovered product, love product. And when I look into product, right, it's about empathy, understanding the user, solving user issues. So depending on, impact goes in every day, you know, when you choose your company, you know, align with the value, you know what you're doing, you know, what user problem you're solving.

[: 00:03:00

Monica: Cool. Yeah, that's, I've noticed in my career when I'm engaged is when I see the impact of what I'm doing. When I'm like not engaged at work, it's like I've kind of somehow disconnected with either the impact I'm doing or the company mission. So it's like, for me, it is important to feel that I'm having impact, right?

Otherwise I'm like, well, otherwise I just.

Julie Martin (Stashaway): Yeah. Yeah. So it's important to feel, yeah, no, I just, I was thinking it's important to feel aligned, you know, with the company, the product you're serving to have something that, you know, drives you towards, towards

ica Millares: this. Exactly. [: 00:04:00

You've had like VC, you have like fashion, you have FinTech. How did you end up in product and then FinTech, Stash Away?

Julie Martin (Stashaway): It's a very good question. So if you ask me, you know, during my studies, I also study a lot of different things that I've joined mathematics one in political sciences, and I went into finance.

I never had a product at the time. I didn't know what product was what I slowly discovered, though, is like, okay, I like tech. I knew I like, you know, innovation and those Okay. And working with startups and I discovered venture capital. So I actually started doing my studies, took a break and started to work in a VC in Paris.

iness models. So after this. [: 00:05:00

That's quite intense. We launched it and I was head of ops at the time I created the world ops function. And this is the first time that I had direct hands on, you know, I was talking to clients and at the same time we had a product and the team was in Berlin because this is a, the recruit model.

And I was very frustrated by the product and this is where I realized, Oh, I actually would like to be on the product side and help to solve those problems that customers, you know, call me every day to talk about. So that's how I discovered product. And after this, I product in Berlin and yeah, I had to confirm that.

That's a very cool

Monica Millares: job. [: 00:06:00

Because many people are kind of like trying to move from other industries into fintech and they're like, how do I go about that

Julie Martin (Stashaway): interview? So it's a good question actually. So I actually, so I started my career also in investment banking because after a small product experience, I still wanted to do VC in the long term.

ay, product and finance. But [: 00:07:00

financial market participants, so a bit different, right? I wasn't on the other side of the, what we call the Chinese role. I wasn't on the wealth management side, so a bit of an imposter syndrome for me. When they contacted me, I was like, okay, I like the product. I've been using similar products in London.

I know it solves, you know, big customer problems. It's interesting, but, I wasn't, and at the time I was really starting to specialize. I was time in e commerce. So I was, I knew a lot about the e commerce landscape, but not a lot about the FinTech landscape. So I remember, okay, first interview HR, I mean, it was, it was okay.

on the product side, it was [: 00:08:00

I was finishing very late at work the same week. I didn't have time to check the product as much. So I had to be very honest, saying, you know, I, I don't know all the investment product yet, but you know, I know the problem you're, you're solving. And, you know, if you give me a chance to go to the next step, I can, I can catch up on it.

This, I was confident, you know, I, I needed to, to just take a bit of time. So I managed to pass a second run, but you know, I know it was, it was a bit just, and they told me, you know, you should, you know, look at the product a bit more, right? The investment product, the funds, strategies, what you think about it.

ind of senior PM, but on the [: 00:09:00

I spent probably 15 to 20 hours. reading, looking at all the companies on the market. Also, you know, I had a lot of friends in FinTech I called, asking, you know, what do they think about the product, blah, blah, blah, or even people from everyday, right? Would you use that, should we? Yes, no, why, why not?

And yeah, I was able to do the, the, the case. and then, more than when I got the offer, I decided to take on the challenge, but I, I spent hours, catching up on the landscape and, and, some of the financial notions. So it was quite a good, exciting challenge for me.

ing on case studies, I think [: 00:10:00

You're proposing something about something that you don't know about, like as much as your job. Right. So it's like, it takes time. How did you, of course, like to prepare for the case study, like you did, you immerse yourself in market research. You spoke with customers. I love that. That it's like, I spoke with the actual customers, you started using these, but then how did you go about the, the case study?

It's like the, how long you keep it, how short you keep it, like what's your mindset?

Julie Martin (Stashaway): So, I'm General Linn. More on the short styles so I think I did a classic slides trying to keep it short, bullet points, and very clear and visual. Because they're evaluating you, not just on the, the content, right?

has been the different steps [: 00:11:00

and even if you have PM experience from another sector, e commerce or other, you can still reuse the frameworks you have learned. You can reuse your, you know, communication skills and this is what they're going to look at. I would say the fact that, if you can... Talk to potential customers, you know, record a few, testimonials, do some market research, add some numbers.

very consist clear and, you [: 00:12:00

just show that you, you know, you did the, the extra, extra steps there and not just thinking about the question and, and answering.

Monica Millares: Yes. I love that. And then basically building on your career, like, okay, you nailed the interview. You've been a few years in Stash Away and now you're a head of product in Stash Away.

How does your day to day change when you go from being a PM and then now managing all the PMs? And what's the challenge about managing PMs?

Julie Martin (Stashaway): It's quite, it's quite different. It went it was a bit gradual for me. I remember there was a sort of transition steps where, okay, the investment product we really double done.

squads at the same time. So [: 00:13:00

So it was. Quite gradual and but still quite fast, right? Everything happened in in, I guess it's been almost two years also, you know, in, in the last two years. So what, what changes that as a, as a PM, individual contributor is very, it's easier to know, you know, what does it. Expectation from, from you you have your OKRs, you can launch your products, everything is measurable, it's, you know, you know, your product is successful, you know, it's, you're very comfortable, you know, working with your squad, stakeholders, I was, I was very comfortable in, in, as I said, it's very interesting, but, so when, when you start to be, on the manager side, it's [00:14:00] different, right?

It's your. You have to learn. It's a bit difficult at the beginning. We got the products sometimes a bit your babies. You have to learn how to step back, not, not, not go directly. You know, you're not the one, you know, developing that, that product, right? so you need to step back and, and coach, right? The, the PMs.

in doing this and sometimes it's you're very tempted to, you know, give, give a solution or, and, and that's what you, you do actually naturally at the, at the beginning, you know, very tempted to do things by yourself because you're like, okay, it would be maybe more efficient if I do things by myself, but it's not sustainable in the longterm.

behind. it's still something [: 00:15:00

so stepping back and, and also, you know, no matter what you do, I think the impact is less direct, right? And when you work on the product and exactly. So it takes time, right? It's like you kind of planted seeds and you watch them grow and it takes, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a very fast person. I like fast results and anything.

So when you, you know, there is somebody between you and the product and, you know. People, it's not a person, it's not, it's not a machine. It's a, that was challenging for, for

Monica Millares: me. Yes. And I think every PM, because many people are like, Oh, I'm a senior PM. And then I move into a group PM or a head kind of role.

o I want to be an individual [: 00:16:00

Rather than being the one leading the, the doing.

Julie Martin (Stashaway): Because you can be an amazing senior PM and then, you know, struggling as a, as a, as a manager is quite different actually.

Monica Millares: Yes, exactly. Cool. Well, thank you for that. Your career has been quite StashAway.

Because we've already been talking about StashAway without even saying what it is. So tell me, what does StashAway do? I use your product, by the way, like for many years, and I love it, and so I'm a big fan of StashAway. Yeah. It's like, I love StashAway.

ps you know, you and me with [: 00:17:00

You don't need to be extra accredited investors to invest, right? And it's to invest in a very simple way. So, which where what we call kind of a robot writer, bit of categories where, you know, you go on the app even if you don't have a lot of financial knowledge. We ask you a few questions about, you know, your assets, your risk preference, and then we you know, we create a portfolio or we have a few range of portfolios with a risk that is adapted to your profile.

So that's how it started. Now we've been diversifying a bit investment product offerings. So it's. Everything around waste management and also managing your money so you can, we also do cash management so you can and you know, higher, higher returns compared to what you have, you know, in a bank, you have a different range of investment products.

We [: 00:18:00

So we also developed a solution with our Flex portfolios for people to you know, select some of the sectors of things they would be interested in. So it's all about waste management in a very measured, simple ways. We have also an academy. We give classes about personal wealth and you know, how to manage your money over the long term.

your, your, your wealth and [: 00:19:00

Monica Millares: Yes. And I see, I think you're spot on that it's the academy. The academy is what differentiates you in it's not the investment.

Of course you have differentiation points when it comes to the investment product as such, but I guess as a brand, like you're bringing your mission to life when it comes to the academy. It's not just a, Hey, let's launch another investment product. It's a, the, the academy ensures that you're bringing customers with you in the journey and that they are educated, making the right decisions rather than just.

Boom, put your money there and then forget.

ght, we're not going to sell [: 00:20:00

We have to be cautious about the risks that the client can test, right? We have to be cautious about their background, their preferences. We have to make sure they're educated if, you know. Just asking to deposit for depositing, it's not you know, it's not very useful, but we educate about this year, right, dollar, dollar cost averaging and the importance of saving money a bit every month to, and investing it.

So it's, it's most thoughtful, I think, as as an industry, I mean, the, the waste management side, we need to be very cautious and and at Stasher, it's really how we, we think about in terms of product development. So it's everything needs to be clear, simple. We need to explain, we need to be transparent.

isk rates. Well, actually we [: 00:21:00

Monica Millares: Yes. And I love that. I think like you're. product principle that's very clear that it's like, Hey, be transparent, but even bigger than that, it's like, be thoughtful, be thoughtful about the journey end to end.

Yeah. I, I like, I like that, that thinking. So have you, well, Sasha has been around for maybe five years or so. And I'm assuming as a startup now scale up, it was not always the same, right? Like when you it's different, but then, and the academy was introduced. later in the journey, right? Do, have you guys noticed any difference on customer engagement, customer behavior, once you introduced the education piece or it's been, has it had a major impact?

It

Martin (Stashaway): made an [: 00:22:00

So there is a correlation, sometimes it's hard to, you know between correlation because it is hard to, to see, but definitely helps. And we, we do get some customer that, you know, give us some feedback and thanks for, you know, sharing the, the weekly bus, right? Like a few bullet points every week on what's happening on the market.

o this. Some other customers [: 00:23:00

And so they do remember this this touch and information shared behind. It's not. You know, just a medium to, to invest.

Monica Millares: Awesome. Congrats. Because I genuinely like the product. Like I use it a lot. And it's, I think you guys have done a good job in exactly crafting the customer journey and the customer experience end to end rather than just having investment products.

It's as simple as that. So, [: 00:24:00

Can you explain, like, what are the top pain points of customers within the investments, retail investments world?

Julie Martin (Stashaway): Yes. So for us because there are many, many pain points, but the one we're looking at and we're Addressing. So generally one is it's difficult to invest, right? You need time and knowledge, right?

And knowledge comes with time So if you want to invest and do your investment yourself, your portfolio, first of all, you need time to actively manage it. And then you need the knowledge, right? So you need to read a lot and look at the right stocks, etc. So it's very time consuming and some people, right, prefer to have other hobbies, right, or other things in life than spending time on managing their money.

By being very user friendly [: 00:25:00

Once you set this up, you can just, you know. Relax and look at it and maybe review your investments every quarter or something like this. So it's really it's really made for users who want to save time, right? We don't have time to spend on on investing. So that's that's the pain point. Another pain point is the cost.

So investing actually has a lot of hidden costs and some of the platform in traditional banks. Usually the management fees have been highest. So we really came and that's how we kind of disrupted at the beginning. Like it's a lot in the UK, in Europe, in US, but in Singapore. Yes, that's what I was going to say.

It [: 00:26:00

You have a lot of investment platforms. The costs are different depending on the platform, but I don't think it's as much of a pain point that it was five years ago, but it's still To make sure you, you're not overpaying, right? For this and the other pain point is, I guess, usability, right?

hone, on the market. So it's [: 00:27:00

So this is also Something you know when we talk to clients something they love about Stashaway right? It's easy compared to I I don't know like calling your your your your your bankers We in Singapore we even do For instance private markets for accrediting investors, so venture capital PVC DRP, private equity and venture capital investing.

say those are the three main [: 00:28:00

Monica Millares: Yes. And that makes sense as the wealth management industry has evolved as such, because like you say, let's say seven, eight years ago when I was in the UK, we started to see the first RoboWealth, maybe like the, the, the first investment products, let's say the new apps, but then maybe, I don't know.

Twelve years ago, or ten years ago, it was the first generation. But then maybe eight years ago, the products that I used to use in the UK, they were starting to be very similar to what StashAway is doing now. So it's been a journey. It's not a, Hey, like upfront, we're solving all these problems, but the industry as such has gone through a journey and I'm very pleased to see how as an industry, we've kind of started to grow and now it's like normal.

oss all geographies that you [: 00:29:00

Massive progress and impact as an industry when it comes to investments. So moving into inclusion. So, within the financial wellbeing world, we know that there is differences between men and women, especially when it comes to investments. The. The men portion of the population are more likely to invest rather than women.

there something that you do [: 00:30:00

Julie Martin (Stashaway): So I joined it was

I actually did a lot of education on, on the women's side and we have no more than they already had. So I think it's been the same since a couple of years, more than 40% of, of female investors. So it's pretty balanced actually on the platform. I don't think it started this way. It came with a lot of additional education and awareness we've done, you know, for women in investing with.

f, of presentation of users. [: 00:31:00

Monica Millares: Cool. And how about talking about diversity and inclusion?

Of course. Like the topic of the year, the decade, what are your thoughts about women in fintech and women in product management as such? How do we make it better for us?

Julie Martin (Stashaway): Women in fintech, I think product management, it's I would say it's getting a bit more balanced as an industry right between but if you look at the junior size, yes, you know, the older you get, then I think you have more seniors on.

It's less balance on the senior side, but it's, I think getting better as an industry because people realize, you know, to build product, right, you need diversity, right? You need diversity, you need, you know, diverse ideas and backgrounds to build products that also address, you know, different, different problems.

's getting better, but it's. [: 00:32:00

And then when you look at finance, it's very, very male dominated. So naturally, it could be, you know, we would have probably more candidates, right, that are males. That's something we have to keep in mind, right not to But to, to reproduce so that FinTech doesn't become like finance and stay a bit more, a bit more diversified.

backgrounds and opinions to [: 00:33:00

If you have different opinions and different backgrounds in your team. So it's, I would say it's getting better generally on the product side, but in FinTech because a lot of, you know, people from finance come to FinTech and people from tech also, so tech in general is not super diverse. We have to be cautious when building team, building companies that we keep a diverse set of skills and experiences.

So it can be about genders, but you know, other things also but previous experiences exactly. Yeah. And, and backgrounds. Yeah. So gender is one thing, but generally the diversity side is super

n outstanding product person?[: 00:34:00

Julie Martin (Stashaway): So on the, for an individual contributor generally product is a well rounded. Set of skills, right? We need people that are very good at communication, that have a lot of technical background, technical knowledge, able to understand quickly, right? How to, how structure work, how product is structured how services work between each other.

We need people that are very data driven. We need people that know how to do market research, know how to talk to customers. In general, there is a very broad set of skills, right? And so it's It's a bit difficult to say, you know, it depends on what type of skills you're missing in the team and what you want to look for, right?

complimentary to the rest of [: 00:35:00

We need, for that position, we need somebody for, With a more technical background. So depending on the rules, I don't always look for the same thing. But in terms of similar traits, right? We want people that are of course, they have a lot of empathy. So I think customer first, right? Not thinking about, okay, I'm going to solve the problem that internally they're asking me to solve, right?

It's more about being curious, right? Trying to go and look at the data and find some, some customer problem to, to solve. Empathy and being very proactive. Right? So it's not like PMs that don't just do what, you know, they're supposed to do, but already know how to look the next three months, six months you know, prepare the backlog IDs.

now, they see that we're not [: 00:36:00

Monica Millares: Yes, I like that, that the expectation changes. As you progress in your career, because probably if you look at the, what's out there in internet and LinkedIn, there's a lot of product narrative. Oh, you need to have all these skills. And then you're like, Oh my God, I don't have all of that. And it's like, no, it depends on where you are in your career.

need to be. an expert in all [: 00:37:00

And where it's your complimentary type of team, because then you're like, for example, like you were saying, maybe you need someone more technical and then it's a, Hey, you pair up the technical person in the team. Well, the skills of someone more technical with the skills of someone more data driven with the skills of someone more like market use of research needed.

And then you have a very strong team rather than just one expert on everything because that's not possible. Yeah.

Julie Martin (Stashaway): Yeah.

ny company, any product team [: 00:38:00

[00:39:00] Okay, cool. So yeah, in many companies, the challenge that we have is we look at a roadmap and then we go into delivery mode.

Let's deliver this thing in the roadmap. Versus, Hey, how do we ensure that we are an outcome driven product team? And it's not that easy. So what's your thinking around shifting those cultures and ensuring, because it's ongoing, right? How do we ensure that the culture either starts developing into, into an outcomes driven culture or space?

As a outcomes driven culture.

mmerce, because a lot of the [: 00:40:00

And it's, it's very easy to fall down in the waterfall approach, right? You need to develop a new investment product. It's very hard to cut, you know, in the, in the middle of it, right? You either launch it fully or you don't, but you can say, Oh, give me your money and in two months I will invest it, right? So, so it was a bit difficult, right?

We, we, for, for a long time, we were thinking, okay, how do we, do we stay, you know, agile, right? On the one part. And the other part is, how do we also make an impact and measure this? So what we do is I think like a lot of, lot of company we're using OKRs, right? So twice a year we set up targets for the team company OKRs, product OKRs.

these OKRs. Right. So we've [: 00:41:00

We have, you know, monthly update and we look at every initiative we do and how they can impact. So this is to, you know, how to make sure they have an impact. But the other part is how do we keep it a bit more agile, right? We don't wait five months, six months, right, to launch a product and then two months of measuring data behind to say.

Oh, okay. Maybe this doesn't have the expected impact. This is very long, very risky. We're also in a, in a, in a time where we need to be very, very subtle about all the resources we have and really prioritize things that, that make an impact. So more and more, we're trying to look into, okay, we've been breaking down our features.

n the sequence of, you know, [: 00:42:00

Where we were discussing about, about that, right? And try to, to, to really challenge or we, we, we took. two or three of our upcoming projects. And some of them were like a month and a half to up to three, four months, right? Or five months for one. And we're like, okay, we know we want to do it. It's in the roadmap.

We know that there is an impact, but you know, how do we go about it, right? How can we split? What do we, can we start in, right? Do we need to, let's say you want to. Redo your onboarding flow, right? Do we have to redo everything together? Can you start with some piece measure it and, you know, or maybe while you do a lot of incremental changes, you know, keep like a control group.

So it's [: 00:43:00

Am I happy with what I have delivered up to so far? Right? Because I remember when, when I turn I, a few times, right? We had to stop project after months of working on it and you know, it, it still wasn't deliverable, right? So we're really looking into, more into this approach and it's kind of a, between the moment you've done your roadmap, you're prioritized, you have a high level, you have your MVP, you have a high level idea of the scope, it's a step back that we're trying to, [00:44:00] to do and realignment with the, with the devs and with the squads, right?

Between PMs and the squads to think about, okay. It's there, it's coming, it looks like a, you know, a three month shock in the, in the roadmap. What do we do first, right? What makes sense? What is, you know, is there something we need to do, like a POC for instance, proof of concept, right? To try to see maybe it doesn't even work, the integration with this vendor.

Maybe we, You know, we can solve this first, and then we're confident and we can go with the rest. If the first part doesn't stop, it doesn't work, and we stop the project. So it's something we're, we're still in the, in the middle of improving, but it's very, very exciting to, to look at. So, because we, I mean, we still spend a lot of time on mapping and prioritizing things, but now we're trying to add that extra.

e and we measure what we do. [: 00:45:00

Monica Millares: And the results, yes. And it's a journey, at least from my perspective. I can say, Hey, it's a journey. You don't get it right, like straight away. It's an evolution.

As with any product development process. Julie, it's been an amazing pleasure having you on the show. Thank you for all your wisdom. Where can we find you? And where can we find more about StashAway?

Julie Martin (Stashaway): You can find me on LinkedIn, I guess. Or in, in Singapore. Basically in Singapore. If you want to go for a coffee, if you come to Singapore, let me know.

s academy models some of the [: 00:46:00

Yes. Because I love to give you feedback.

Monica Millares: Yes. Yes. Cool. Thank. Thank you, Julie. Just before we go, very last question, if you could change one thing in FinTech to make FinTech better and have positive impact to customers, staff, and investors, what could it be?

Julie Martin (Stashaway): Okay.

Monica Millares: One thing. Yes.

Julie Martin (Stashaway): It's difficult. I know. It's a difficult one because you can't.

r important. But it would be [: 00:47:00

To develop new products in different countries or, you know, from the different, or maybe something that is more universal, depending on the region so that we don't have to talk to, you know, different regulators in different region. I think that's, that's a major pain point for, for innovation and entrepreneurship.

On the other side, it's... It's, it's, it's, it's money it's needed. We need to do, it's, it's very important. So I think there is potentially a lot of innovation that can be done in that, in the regulation side. Also,

tion and makes it easier for [: 00:48:00

What is it that's allowed, what's not allowed on how we can think different, provide different solutions while still being compliant. So that's a big question for the industry, Julie. Yeah. Very, very good question. Thank you.

Julie Martin (Stashaway): Yeah. That's not an easy one to, to solve. No, it's not an

Monica Millares: easy one, but I like it.

That's a big question

Julie Martin (Stashaway): that we need to think it, so.

Monica Millares: Yes. Yes. I'm sure they are. Awesome. Thank you. Julie, thank you so much for your time and speak very soon. Thank you everyone. Ciao, ciao. Thank you.