Founder: Unleashing the Power of AI, Sustainability and Programmable Money | Tony Craddock, Director General of the Payments Association

Monica Millares: [: 00:00:00

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) It's great to be here and thank you for inviting me. I'm looking forward to the

Monica Millares: chat. Thank you. Thank you. So before we go into your career and wisdom into the payments industry as such, I want to ask like a few questions to get to know you as Tony a little bit as a human.

So let's start with what is your definition of success?

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) So to me, success is Doing the things you love to do and not doing the things that you don't. Simple. It is, it is as simple as that. And if you're smart enough to know what you're really, really good at and what you really love to do, and you can migrate your career to a place at which every morning you get up and go, this is a wonderful thing that I've got to do today because I'm good at it.

o delegate or simply not get [: 00:01:00

Monica Millares: I love that. Yes. It's a good definition. Short and simple.

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) Yeah. Yeah. You can go on and on and on about it, but it all, to me, that all, it all boils down to those two things.

Monica Millares: And then the other side of success is of course, life and work can be tough sometimes. So on the Jing and the Zhang. So how did you deal with the tough times when life gets difficult?

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) Again, we give this label tough times to stuff that is simply a mismatch between our expectations and the reality.

to get to and where they got [: 00:02:00

between where you've got to and where most other people are. And it's pretty likely that if you live in the gap between where most other people are and where you've got to, and if you're an aspiring and hardworking, then pretty much most of the time you're going to be doing pretty darn fantastically well.

Often we set the bar so high in terms of achievement that we're going to be guaranteed to be dissatisfied. So to me, it's not so much, it's, I don't have, I know it sounds really cliched, but I don't. Have tough times. In my career, I've had some things that haven't worked. I've lost a lot of money with one, one company I've worked with.

t insight, in that learning? [: 00:03:00

I think that's what helps. Does that, does that give you an okay answer? It's a bit of a cop out. But I'm a generally, I'm a compulsively optimistic person. My future is always going to be bigger than my past. It always is that way. And, and, and if something doesn't quite work that's all. It just doesn't quite work.

Monica Millares: I love what you just said. My future is going to be bigger than my past because I'm also very, very optimistic person, but I do have to accept many times. I'm like, Oh my God, the future. Ah, fear, fear, fear.

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and if you have this underlying assumption that it will be and I think most entrepreneurs, most people running small businesses, even if they've done really well, they will have in their mind the sense that tomorrow's always going to be bigger.

And that's quite cool. I'm [: 00:04:00

Monica Millares: So now I thought you were going to be a wise man, but by now in our five minutes, I'm like, yes, you have a lot of wisdom.

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) No, no, no, I'm not wise. I've just been around a long time. Some of it's rubbed off. That's all.

Monica Millares: Yeah. Many people ask what's the best advice or what's the worst advice that somebody gave you when you were young? But what I like asking is the opposite which advice you wish somebody gave you when you were younger or when you started your career?

es, and we've just been away [: 00:05:00

You don't have to teach us all the time. But one of the things I encourage is them to do is just to be curious, is always seek out, always find somebody who's somebody's whose coach tales you can, you can hang on to or somebody who you can. And that's why I'm hoping there might be one or two people listening to this that go and I'm hoping there's more than one or two people listening to this.

tisfy sufficient measures of [: 00:06:00

And if you can, I've generally picked up a few things on my way and that's helped me but I still got a whole way to go. We feel sometimes I've only just started. We really, we have, we have only just started in terms of transforming the industry for the better through payments.

And I've been doing this, I've been doing it for 15 years.

Monica Millares: Yes. At that, I agree that it feels like exactly just the beginning like a new wave is coming.

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) Yeah. No, I agree.

I agree. We're in a time of incredible change and uncertainty, but equally opportunity. Exactly.

ose. What do you think we as [: 00:07:00

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) So it's just such a great question. And the difficulty is that you can set up a fintech without purpose. You can do that. It's possible to say look actually here's a lending product or an asset finance product that I know I've done my research. I know somebody will buy this and if I can add this tweak in that tweak then actually underlying that I will be able to make enough money.

The difficulty is that nowadays customers The investors, the staff and your partners and your distributors and your wholesalers, they will expect more. And if it's about having somebody else who's got a similarly good product or you, and you can evangelize a little bit about the impact you make on the world around you, you know what?

people will choose you. [: 00:08:00

We have All the hygiene factors satisfied. Even the vulnerable socially and economically excluded people. It's still ain't too bad. So, we have a chance to bring them up with us and to ourselves overlay on what we do.

A sense of deeper purpose and to do that authentically, not cause you're branding people say you've got to do it, but because you believe it. And if you don't believe it, do something else. Yes.

purpose exactly has been the [: 00:09:00

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) It can be a differentiator, but in the end, when you're expecting your staff to be working at midnight, and if you're expecting your customers to stay with you rather than switch, and if you're expecting your partners to come to you first, then you have to be doing it for a good reason.

And that's what I'm hoping part of what we're, we're, we're a purpose led business here. We're about helping make the world a better place through payments, which I can, I can talk a lot about. and what I hope that does is that gives people a hook that they themselves can translate into something that they can weave into their solutions and their messaging.

And it makes it exciting too. It gives us something to, something that's really gives, gives a return to the world around us.

Monica Millares: Exactly. And then I want to build on that because I think you've been a pioneer for the past 15 years. So let's say now the term community, community, community, community is everywhere.

ted the. Payments community, [: 00:10:00

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) So,, I was asking myself this question cause I, I thought you might ask this.

And I was asking myself this question this morning, so let me just tell you a story. So when I was 18 I left a very nice, comfortable public school and I had a good education, and I came out and had a year off. And I did a, I worked in a factory and I worked in an office, and then I had four months traveling time.

that's quite popular, but in: 1979

S. There I was, you can, you can imagine me, I had lots of blonde [00:11:00] hair and I was a t shirt with a Union Jack on it. And of course, this is not what you did and I did get quite a few, a few lifts, partly because of the Union Jack and, and the fact that people were thinking, who the hell is this guy?

But I got to, I got to San Francisco and I was invited to join a commune. Oh cool. So it's quite interesting what does the, I was looking this up, what does the word commune actually mean? Because it, I thought I didn't really know. I thought it was very, very odd.

And it's defined as a group of people living together and sharing possessions and responsibilities. And what they do is they commune by sharing communing is sharing one's intimate thoughts and feelings or to feel in close spiritual contact with someone. Anyway, I remember in those days, the best you could ever do was send a postcard or a letter to your mother and she'd get it a week or two later.

alled the Unification Church [: 00:12:00

This incredible psychological bond that happens. Looking back at it, that I can now only realize how formative that was because I trade association I've set up. I set up to purely as a volunteer and I set up this one because I discovered an industry, the payments industry that deeply needs connectivity.

Access and influence, and there wasn't a community that was providing that. Certainly not with any sort of spiritual or purposeful component. And I just did what all entrepreneurs do. I just started with the business model and I didn't get it right the first few times, but as time goes on, I've found myself with this commercial membership model and, and it's, it's working, which is wonderful.

ares: Yes. So now I love the [: 00:13:00

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) let's say. Yeah, absolutely. And who knows? When we look back at our own histories, what are the things, what are the kind of, what are those things that influence us? And for me, it was hitchhiking across America and joining what was called the Moonies and then, and then leaving.

And they didn't like the fact that I was leaving, of course but that's another story altogether.

Monica Millares: So now you have the Payments Association. Which impact do you want to create in the industry?

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) Again, that's also a good question, because if we're not doing this for impact, what are we doing it for?

, that it helps their career.[: 00:14:00

And they have fun. That's what I'd like to think. So we help people on an individual level. We help the companies they work for because the members of the Payment Association are going to do better. They're going to grow their businesses faster at lower cost and lower risk than if for non members. And that's our promise.

I believe that the industry you know, without a voice Without a voice of companies that believe that they're stronger together, then that industry doesn't have an identity, it doesn't have a presence and doesn't have a sense of belonging or, or coming back to your word, purpose, right? So that's the third level we help is we've helped to define the industry.

've helped improve the world [: 00:15:00

How many times a day do you have to pay or buy something? Every day. Corporations are buying and selling all the time. And the

lifeblood of commerce, the lifeblood of society, dare I say, and I don't think this is an unreasonable claim, is the payments movement. It's the movement of money. And that's what we represent. And I'm, I'm a total evangelist for our industry. I believe it has a strong role to play. I think it's undervalued, underappreciated, underrecognized.

My job is to get it more recognized, more appreciated, and more valued with the parties that matter.

ry, and I think if we can do [: 00:16:00

That's what people crave.

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) I, I agree with you. I think , it's especially true post COVID, where we were starved from connectivity with other people. It's a pleasure to meet you on Zoom, Monica, , and everything, but one day we'll be having a beer together. Or we'll be sitting across the table and having a laugh and, and creating something.

And, and that's where life happens, honestly. So we enable that, with a...

And actually we also enable it in a way that hits people's wallets, their pockets, both as individuals and as companies to be more successful and profitable. But no, I agree. I think in today's society, people yearn.

ey yearn to be able to meet, [: 00:17:00

And part of that is we need to be open in our example with other people, be more authentic.

Monica Millares: I think so. I think that was many years in the UK. Yeah. I think Brits have opened up a little bit as well.

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) I hope so. I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

Monica Millares: So you mentioned about having different projects. One of those projects, it's about AI and of course, that is the topic of the year.

Can you expand on your opinion on how AI is going to revolutionize how we do business payments, fintech? I, I

really knows. And artificial [: 00:18:00

I think it's got popular because it's now available to the general public. I think understanding how it applies to our industry. And remember, I have two industries. I have the payments industry that we serve. And then I have the community industry, and I, I think as a community geek, I have to think about how to use it for our own service provision to our members.

I'm going to talk first largely about payments, because that's the area that I think is going to be most interesting to the audience. I think there's probably some short term, medium term, and long term ways in which AI will be adopted. I think in the very short term, and it's already being used for this, to do with fraud detection and prevention.

ing to be used to help on an [: 00:19:00

So if you're like, does that, does that sort 10 on short Do they resonate with you? Yes,

Monica Millares: definitely, because especially with fraud going to the roof and yes, we're already seeing rules based risk tools. So what this is going to do, it's just enhance them such that we can stop fraud at the right time, like you said, even before getting the customer.

er to be providing them with [: 00:20:00

I don't just mean new payments products and services or financial services, but better utilities, better travel services, better better entertainment packages, so I went to see Oppenheimer the other day. Did I get a message the next day saying that actually there's this really good Show on at the Curzon Street Cinema all about the history of of J.

F. Kennedy. No, I don't know if I'd known about that, but they, don't yet deploy these things, but they will do. And this is where, in the medium term, we're going to be looking at things like personalized services. Personalized package and services that are just for Monica. And you go, oh my goodness, Tony, have you not heard about this?

erm, we're also going to see [: 00:21:00

So it'll be it'll be me and I will be there'll be an avatar of a customer service person who will be talking eloquently. You'll see my hands. You'll see my face. I'll have all the information about you. And actually I won't need to speak to a real person because in fact the avatar is much better.

Monica Millares: Yes. And that's kind of like. I don't know. Uncomfortable. That's the right word. That's uncomfortable. I don't know if it's good or bad, but it's uncomfortable.

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) It is now. It is now. But I'll tell you what, the kids don't mind it. My, my kids in their 20s, they don't mind it. It's that's just, that's just better, isn't it?

Why would I bother waiting five minutes or 20 minutes on the phone for somebody when I can get somebody now? And they know all about me and they know what, what authorizations they've got. They don't need to keep on departing the phone call and referring to their boss about stuff because they know all the answers because they know everything because it's AI.

Millares: It's a good point. [: 00:22:00

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) For this sort of situation, it would be really hard for, for, for us to do a robo Monica because Monica is very intuitive. You've got a world of experience and you'll, you'll check in on, you'll challenge the interviewee. You'll build on their questions and you'll use all that experience that you have.

But I, but if I want to get like I phoned the bank of Scotland yesterday and I said, I want to know what my mortgage balance is. And I don't want to knew this and the other. And she was very considerate. But I could have done that with a robo advisor just as easily, and I wouldn't have had to wait. Yes.

opt digital currencies, both [: 00:23:00

And the thought that we can attach a set of conditions to the sending of a token of value, a digital token of value, that will mean certain things happen under certain circumstances. For example I can send you a token of 50 as a as a gift that can only be used on your birthday. So the condition is when Monica's birthday arrives, she can use the 50 pounds.

Now that contract attached to that simple transaction, you want it now, don't

Monica Millares: you?

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) want it now. No, I

Monica Millares: want it now. Still uncomfortable because it takes my freedom away of how I can use

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) it. Exactly. But if I, if I say, look, you can have 20 pounds now, or you can have 50 pounds on your birthday, what would you prefer?

e the ability to program the [: 00:24:00

Based on Monica and my preferences, circumstances, risk requirements. Now, just getting, if you've heard that idea for the first time, it's quite hard to get your head around it. But I'll tell you what, we're going to see all sorts of new innovations coming down the line. That AI is going to be helping us to produce the smart contracts in a way that is just right for you and me.

Monica Millares: I love it. It's the first time that I hear this idea where we're connecting AI and smart contracts. Yeah. Yeah. It's clever. It's clever. Which other use case? Because like now we use the very basic, Hey, just send me money. I cannot use it now. I can use it on my birthday. But which other use cases do you see?

So

example that I love, which I [: 00:25:00

Now, right now, the company you're sending it to, you've got no idea, really, what the hell they're using it for. They might be using it to, for, to, to, to make the tea. They might be using it to buy Shell or BP assets, because Shell and BP are actually investing a lot in green technologies. But if you've said no...

e it absolutely mandated and [: 00:26:00

You're a customer in France. I'm a supplier in the UK. It could be that I will be willing to receive my products At my house and pay for them on receipt So what you do is you attach a gps tracker to the goods when the goods are at the person's house The value is instantly released subject to the customer authorizing the payment I'm probably now.

here it went to because it's [: 00:27:00

If I have a digital identity, which by the time this stuff all comes out, we will all have, then I know where it's come from and I know where it's going to. So I might even be prepared to pay more for sending it to a good core, good source than I would otherwise. And that's where the money, that's, that's how you make a profit out of this.

So it's a, it's a source. It's, it is, it is the most exciting stage in our industry for the last, the most exciting stage since the credit and debit card 70 years ago.

Monica Millares: Yes. I'd like to see soap and soap. A set of use cases, just as we were talking, I was thinking you can support NGOs anywhere.

ut if I were to put my money [: 00:28:00

But in this case. I can confidently say, here's my money, but you can use it for this. And, and,

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) and, and you can do it in a way that there's a key that has to be unlocked for the money to actually be usable in, say, I don't know, Kazakhstan or something. I'm saying this because I doubt there's many Kazakhstani listeners.

And if there are, I'm sorry. And, and so that that key can only be unlocked and then you may need some evidence. To confirm that you're happy and satisfied that that is sufficiently authentic a use for the money.

Monica Millares: I like it because another, Ooh, this is a good one. Another use case is for financial education.

e kids across the world, but [: 00:29:00

You can only use that for going out. You can, but you can only use these for suites and cinemas and helping kids learn since the

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) beginning. Yes, completely right. We had a we were told at the very beginning to give the children three pots. We gave them three jam jars, and one was called saving, one was called spending, and one was called giving.

Giving. And, and the irony is my 25 year old daughter still has those three pots in her bedroom because they symbolize for her how you can choose about how you spend money. And, okay, you, in those days you did it with coins and putting Notes in the various pots, but of course you can do this. Nowadays you can do it using this and programmable money.

Very [: 00:30:00

Monica Millares: We can do a FinTech just to do that. Because that's the product, right? Like you have a stash. Many fintechs have it like stashes, but now like stashes based on programmable money. Yeah,

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) it'll happen. You just got to be able to use the programmable money somewhere.

And at the moment you can't. That's the trouble.

Monica Millares: Okay. So an idea for in three to five years time.

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Monica Millares: Okay. The other topic that I want to discuss with you, one of the projects that you have is around ESG, that that's also a big problem that we have, but I think it's not clear that we as an industry, how can we have impact?

What are

year and throwing them away. [: 00:31:00

So I think that's, that's, that'll happen. That'll happen in time. I think the big, the big one for me is, is genuinely how can you have a more sustainable industry, a more responsible industry, one that actually takes its role as how would you say it? It's role as a kind of an agent of, agent of the right sort of change.

he government, these are the [: 00:32:00

crime prevention, regulation digital currencies, cross border and in this case ESG. A number of things we want to try and do. We want to gather more information through the payment transactions that will allow us to encourage more sustainable and responsible spending. That's businesses in particular.

We want to provide education. To help people understand the impact of their decisions as a, in terms of supply chain. At a very simple level, I know this sounds completely counterintuitive for me championing the industry. But I would like to see a much smaller payment industry. What do you mean?

traceable industry. Equally [: 00:33:00

Think about how many people are employed in the payments industry, probably three or four hundred thousand in the UK alone. We provide services to other countries. But you look at the friction of the payments industry. We should be looking, it's not sustainable. 1, 2, 3, 4% maybe, in some cases up to 10% of the transaction value goes in the movement of the money.

hink it's going to grow very [: 00:34:00

You'll have. preferential access to early stage products and services from your suppliers and a more motivated and loyal staff. And we all know that if your staff are loyal and motivated, they'll correlate with loyal and motivated customers, which correlates with long term higher profitability and sustainable growth.

So it's a good thing for the investors, but the people are, we've got to educate people on that. And so those are the sorts of

e engagement and loyalty and [: 00:35:00

It's not the other way. Scream, scream, scream. Ah, fear. No. Exactly. It's the

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) opposite. What happens, what happens when you do that is people chat and chat, chat, and they spend all their time chatting about how bloody horrible it is rather than focusing on how amazing it, this idea is. And we can, we, I love, I do love our staff.

We've got a wonderful team of people and, and remember, I'm lucky because I have lots of people who work for me that we pay for my, my, we've got 35, 40 employees who are all coming to my house on Friday afternoon for a barbecue. To to have a summer barbecue. So in London, so that'll be great fun. So I'm I'm we are quite a family in in our business But i've got a i've got 15 dedicated ambassadors who champion the payment association.

xecutives to provide us with [: 00:36:00

Members of my constituent, my members are involved with these, these groups of project, the project teams. We have the whole, we have lots of people working to help us achieve our mission. It's a, it's a lovely communal kind of. What, and they all, they and, and they pay us for the privilege. The, the, the bizarre thing is, and again, I don't feel bad about this at all because we've just lit, we've just created this catalyst and what it allows us to do is have more impact on the things, the four different levels I mentioned at the beginning in, in a way that I think.

I think it's, I think it's a model for future communities, to be honest with you. I think we'll be seeing this similar sort of commercial membership model deployed in other industries. And that's where I'm probably most proud is I think we've innovated in how communities are run.

Monica Millares: Amazing. [: 00:37:00

Yes, you said so much in this past minute and a half. Yeah, because it is properly, it's going full circle, coming back to the community.

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) Yeah, yeah, and, and, and, and what goes around comes around. That is very true. What goes around comes around. And that's probably something that you said earlier, what's the message I wish I'd been told?

I think I wish I'd been told that a little bit earlier. Hmm.

Monica Millares: And that's a very important message like many times I keep that in mind. Some people that are like, Oh, when are you monetizing the podcast? I'm like. I don't need to monetize a podcast. Like I'm just, I'm just putting the energy out there and then life, life will pay it back in different ways.

And it

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) does, doesn't it? It does. It does. How long, how long have you been doing the the podcast for?

a COVID project. And then I [: 00:38:00

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) Very clever and very focused. If I can help you in any way then you must let me know. There may be people you want to interview from, from Mike and my membership and I've got some amazing, amazingly visionary. Guru like leaders who would I'm sure would be insightful for your audience And if we can promote your podcast in any way, I think we are going to aren't we we're going to support you in promoting it out there.

Thank you.

Monica Millares: Thank you. Delighted to do that. Thank you one more I know, Mike, there's no heroes in this, in this community. We are all amazing. Yeah. That's true. That's true. Thank you. One more question before we go. Usually I ask another question as the last question, but this one, I genuinely, I was like.

I was researching you, [: 00:39:00

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) You know what, I, I, I think, as a, and I, I often refer to that, and I put it down in writing because that's a statement of, of, of, of who I, who I am and what I stand for. I'd like to think that what I do is, and I think this is something anybody can do, is you have some. Open people's eyes in conversation and essentially give themselves permission because we stop [00:40:00] ourselves all the time.

We set obstacles. We I couldn't do that. I couldn't possibly, oh no. Oh, how will it look? What will people think of me? And, and sometimes how you've gotta have those conversations going in your on, in your head and act anyway. So part of, part of what, part of my mantra for business is, is, is to have two rules.

Number one employ the right people and the number two is let them get on with it. But part of the letting people get on with it is, is essentially opening the door and saying, you know what, you talk to me about what you think might be possible. Look at what you think might stop you and then step out regardless.

So to me, that, that to me is, is about giving people the space. To, to, to be their authentic, genuine selves and then they will go way further than they currently think is possible.

Monica Millares: Yes. That will

cause otherwise we And we're [: 00:41:00

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) Yeah, and, and it's a safe box. And it's comfortable because we know it very well. We made the box, for goodness sake. So we like it. And actually, it's still a box. So what's outside the box? First of all, you've got to recognize there is stuff.

There's anything. And then which, which, which area do you want to go in? And so that's what I think, I'd like to think I'm quite good at that bit.

Monica Millares: Awesome. Have you ever considered writing a book? Not about payment, but about like, life, wisdom and leadership, like when you teach

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) your children. I genuinely think those books are read largely by the family and friends of the person who writes them.

And there's lots of them who are much more qualified than me, I'm sure. No, I haven't. And Neera Jones is one of our ambassadors is about to publish a book on the payments industry. And it's, it's a wonderfully complicated and superbly well written book. And I'm a big advocate. No, I, I want to go and ride my bike.

don't want to write a book. [: 00:42:00

Monica Millares: We were privileged to have you in the podcast, Tony. Thank

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) you. It's been wonderful. It's been a pleasure. It's been really lovely to chat.

Monica Millares: Likewise. It's been an absolute pleasure. Where can we find you?

Tony Craddock (The Payments Association) So, we run a business we run the payment association in the UK and across the EU and, and emerging payment association in Asia.

Depending upon where you are and depending on what you want to do, just look us up on the, on, on, online, thepaymentsassociation. org. That's it. And anybody can call me or ask me for help or advice or input, I'd be very happy to help.

Monica Millares: Thank you, Tony. It's been an absolute pleasure. I genuinely enjoyed the conversation a lot.

I hope our listeners also enjoy it too. Thank you everyone. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Bye bye.